This past Monday night, December 4, those of us in the diaspora changed the nusah of the ninth blessing of the Amida from "ve'ten berakha" to "ve'ten tal umatar". As many are aware, there is an interesting question as to the practice of Jews who live in South America, particularly in Buenos Aires and Sao Paolo, communities for whom different climatic conditions exist compared with Jewish communities of the northern hemisphere. This question has (thus far) produced divisions within these communities regarding the prevailing custom.

The practice of most Sepharadim of these communities dates to a decision rendered around 90 years ago by the Chief Rabbi of the Sephardic community in Buenos Aires, Rav Shaoul Setton (1850-1930), and endorsed by leading Sephardic Rabbanim in Israel at the time. In short, the decision was that since their seasons are the other way around (i.e. their Summer occurs Dec-Mar and Winter is Jun-Sep), Jews of Brazil and Argentina should 1) Never say "ten tal u'matar" but rather "barekhenu" year `round, 2) Should never say `mashiv haru'ah u'morid hageshem', but rather `morid hatal year `round 3) During their winter months, they have the option of inserting the phrase "ve'ten tal u'mattar" in the blessing of shome'a tefilla, given their particular need. (Interestingly, Rav Setton cites precedent in a responsum from the mid 17th cent. addressed to the Jews of Recife, Brazil from the Av Bet Din in Salonika at the time, Rav Haim
Shabbetai [Shu"t Torat Haim 3:3]. This was purportedly the very first teshuva solicited by and addressed to Jews of the New World!). Indeed, this decision set the custom of most Sepharadim.

However, the Ashkenazim of Argentina and Brazil did not accept this ruling, opting instead to practice no different than the rest of the diaspora, namely to change to `ve'ten tal umattar' on December 4th, and saying `mashiv ha'ruah' starting on Shemini Atseret.

Rav Ovadia Yosef was asked about this some years ago and sided with the decision of Rav Setton (See Sefer Halikhot Olam p137). The issue was revisited, however, in a question from a leading Rabbi in Buenos Aires, Rabbi Yosef Shehebar, to Rav Ovadia Yosef. In the question Rav Shehebar cited scientific sources that asserted that, due to relatively recent technological advances in the agricultural industry, rains occurring during their summer are no longer considered a detrimental phenomenon, but to the contrary, are now helpful to their crops. (The question was likely precipitated in part by severe droughts that occurred in Argentina in 1988 and 1989 during
their `Summer' months, where it was widely recognized that a lack of rain severely affected their crop output). As a result Rabbi Shehebar inquired as to whether Sepharadim should change their minhag to conform to the Ashkenazim of Argentina and the rest of the world,to start saying `barekh alenu' on December 4th, and `mashiv ha'ruah' on Shemini Atseret.

The response to this question was given in a teshuva from Rav David Yosef written just three years ago (with accompanying endorsements from Rav Ovadia Yosef himself, along with the Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Porat Yosef, Rav Shalom Cohen, and Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Kise Rahamim, Rav Meir Mazouz), and published two years ago in Sefer Halakha Berura vol. 6. In it, Rav David Yosef concluded that Sepharadim should forego their former custom, and change their nusah
to conform with the rest of the diaspora. Among many reasons for his decision, he cited the fact that farmers now have the capacity to harness the heavy rains of their summers to benefit their crop output and minimize flooding, and that in general their Summer rains are considered beneficial. (Regarding `mashiv haruah', Rav Ovadia Yosef did not go quite as far as his son, agreeing to the change only if all the other rabbis of Argentina and Brazil consented to do so.)
In the teshuva, Rav David Yosef seems to indicate that there were still some holdouts within these communities who were reluctant to change from the old Sephardic custom, (the teshuva named a Rabbi Shelomo Benhamu among these holdouts). As this is a quite recent pesaq, I'm sure only time will tell which custom will prevail. I was wondering if any members of this discussion group have any up-to-date information as to the current practice of Sepharadim in
Buenos Aires and Sao Paulo – whether the ruling of Rav Ovadia Yosef was ultimately accepted or whether the holdouts remain firm in their opposition.

Yossi Azose

B"H

Yossi,

I presume that what you mean by their "Winter is in Jun-Sep," is that the peoples of Buenes Aires (Argentina) and Sao Paulo (Brazil) experience "rainy weather" during these months. "Winter," for example in Israel, is always associated with mostly rainy weather, with very little snow. If this is the case in those South American countries you've named, how do they differ from North America? For they, too, have heavy rains in the summer months, yet will ask for rain, "Ten Tal U'mattar," on the 4th of December!

In Yemen, on the other hand, their rainy season comes at Pesach, and yet will they ask for rain close to the Chanukka season, just as they do in North America.

Perhaps this time of asking for rain was designated for all those places outside of Israel proper, where the rainy season falls at different times. In Israel, the time for asking rain is in the month of "Cheshvan." In other places, it is in "Kislev."

David

I presume the basis for the pesack din is the Rosh in Rosh Hashananah where he asks why should we pray for the rain in babylonia when rain at that time in the Provence is detrimental. He says that we should pray for the country we live in or Eretz Yisrael. However the shulchan aruch didn't give this option for tan matar, just pray for Israel or Babylonia. You pray for your country, as we did today and all this week in Israel, in Shomaeh Tefila. Ditto for the Israelis who are in Chutz Le'eretz in November.

I guess we can bring up the Dec. 4 discussion. (I understand there is a good web site on it this year). We pray for rain sixty days after the first day of autumn (Sept. 21). This would be Nov. 21. We are out of whack by two weeks since Rav's calender is the same as the Julian calender and is off a day every century. Now since Pesach is suppose to be in the Spring, if we stick with the present calender (as the Natziv pointed out), we will deliberately not be celebrating Pesach in the spring but in the summer.

David/ Laurence:

The solution of creating two clear cut cut categories far asking for rain, one for Eretz Yisrael and its environs, and a second for everywhere else was originally not so simple, as is evident from the Rambam in the pirush hamishnayoth (Ta'anit 10. There the Rambam says that, (loose translation) "in lands where Summer falls out in Marahshavan, and their rains are not beneficial to them but rather are deadly and destructive, how can the people of these lands ask for rain in Marahshavan? Doesn't that constitute lies and foolishness? (sheker ve'ivelet)"

It is clear the Rambam is saying that, 1) conformity notwithstanding, the Rabbis would never force a community to recite a prayer that is clearly contraindicated by facts on the ground and 2)there is a category of 'destructive rains'. I believe this was the basis of the Pesaq of the Maharhash to the community of Recife (although I don't have the teshuva in front of me), as the peole at that time (17th cent.) believed that rains during that season were destructive and unhealthy.

Since the Rambam seems to be defining this question on the basis of whether or not these rains are actuactually considered destructive, it stands to reason that if science proves otherwise, or that if new technology would counter these destructive forces, then a tefila asking for rain would be removed from the category of 'Sheker ve'ivelet', and these lands would default to the rule of 60 days after the tekufa. It seems this is what Rav David Yosef was driving at in his teshuva.

I would turn out then that nowadays, as David mentioned, since there are no rainy seasons anymore that are considered destructive (in the sense they used to think), there should be no places that differ from the 60 days after the tekufa rule.

B"H

Yossi,

This past Shabbos, I saw a commentary written by Rabbi Yoseph Qafih z"l on Maimonides' "Mishne Torah," Hilchos Tefillah 2:16-17. For those who do not know, Rabbi Yoseph Qafih, a very competent Torah scholar, sat with Rabbi Ovadiah Yoseph, Chief Rabbi emeritus of Israel, on the High Rabbinic Court of Appeals in Jerusalem some years back.

There, he writes that Rambam's teaching (Hilchos Tefillah 2:17) which permits those other places to ask for rain during their own rainy season, particularly, by making the request at the end of the blessing known as "Shomea Tefillah," is a teaching which comes from the Gemara (Taanis 14b), where we find a lengthy discourse on what must be done, in the way of fasting, had the rains delayed in coming. In the very midst of this discussion, we find this striking statement:
שלחו ליה בני נינוה לרבי כגון אנן דאפילו בתקופת תמוז

"The people of Nineveh (today: Mosul, in northern Iraq) sent unto Rebbe [Yehudah Hanassi], saying: 'Would this also apply to us, who even during the season of Tammuz (a month that corresponds with June-July) [stand in need of rain]?' "

Rabbi Yoseph Qafih z"l stresses two very important points, here: First, he says that no one uses the word "even" except when he intends to add on to what has already been stated or implied. In this case, the people of Nineveh agree that they stand in need of rain during the winter months (Dec.-Jan.), but that also they needed rain in the summer months (Jun.-Jul.) Hence: 'Would this also apply to us, who even during the season of Tammuz [stand in need of rain]?' "

Second, he says that the episode here, about the people of Nineveh sending a question to Rebbe, can only be understood when read in concert with the Jerusalem Talmud (Taanis 1:1), which brings down the same story with greater elaboration. There, we find the following:
בנינוה צרכון למעבד תענית בתר פסחא, אתון ושאלון לרבי, אמר לון רבי לכו ועשו ובלבד שלא תשנו מטביעה של תפלה

"In Nineveh, they needed to put themselves under a fast after Pesach [in order to beseech G-d for rain]. They came and asked Rebbe [Yehudah Hanassi]. He said to them: 'Go, and put yourselves [under a fast], but only on the condition that you do not change from the prayer's format."

The Jerusalem Talmud (ibid.) concludes there that whenever the rainy season of a particular place had delayed in coming, for which cause the people put themselves to fasting, they are then supposed to make mention of the very thing that plagued them (viz., Ten Tal U'mattar) in the midst of the six blessings that are said during the prayer during a public fast, while only single individuals will mention the same at the end of the blessing known as "Shomea Tefillah."

So, it follows from his explanation, the people of Nineveh were still requesting rain, just as we do, in the winter season - although, they did so sixty days after the period of Tishri (roughly, the 4th of December). Yet, during the summer months, if the rains had delayed in coming to the extent that it was necessary to declare a public fast, they asked for rain during the special six blessings made during public fasts.

Rabbi Qafih z"l went on to substantiate his view that the above Gemara (Babylonian Talmud, Taanis 14b) can only effectually be explained within the context of the Jerusalem Talmud. For, if not, we find a contradictory statement in the Talmud (Avoda Zarah 8b) that says that every man is permitted to request for his personal needs within the framework of each individual blessing in Tefillas Shemoah Esreh - and not necessarily at the blessing known as "Shomea Tefillah." This means, he can ask for rains, or for a livelihood, even during the summer months by simply making his request at the end of blessing known as "Birkas Hashanim," where it is normally placed. Why, then, does the Gemara demand that it be said during "Shomea Tefillah?" He goes on to answer that if a person needed rain in both summer and winter, and he placed his request for rain always in the "Birkas Hashanim," saying "Ten Tal U'mattar" in both winter and summer, we'd find that he would never say the format prescribed for the Summer dews. Therefore, the Jerusalem Talmud (ibid.) stresses: "...but only on the condition that you do not change from the prayer's format." In layman's terms, since the people of Nineveh were required to say the "Birkas Hashanim" during the Summer just as it was prescribed for the summer months, and to say the "Birkas Hashanim" during the Winter just as it was prescribed for the winter months, they had no choice but to ask for rains in the summer at that place in the prayer where we say "Shomea Tefillah."

Finally, Rabbi Yoseph Qafih admits that Rambam saw the Babylonian Talmud (Taanis 14b) as something independent of the Jerusalem Talmud.

Sincerely,
David

David:

Thank you for the insight from Rav Qafih z"l. I would agree that based on the most current scientific advancements and understanding, the situation in Argentina seems to parallel that of Nineveh.

However, only until recently, it was believed that in these parts of the world, there was a season (i.e. Dec-Feb) where rain was actually considered a 'siman qelalla', a key difference that once existed between Buenos Aires and Nineveh (or still exists according to those resistant to change). It is to this point that I believe the Rambam in the Piroush Hamishnayoth wrote that the hakhamim would never impose a nusah of tefila on a community that was out of touch with reality of their situation, despite the general prohibition of 'meshane miteva shetave'u hakhamim'.

The rain out of season in Israel is considered a curse since the wheat is drying in the fields and will rot if it gets wet. I don't think modern technology has solved that problem.
The Rosh says rain at inappropriate times causes plagues of rodents. As far as I know that is still true.

B"H

Yossi,

Rav Qafih z"l, in his commentary on Rambam's "Mishne Torah," Hilchos Tefillah 2:16-17, went on to say that in Yemen, during the months of harvest (e.g. during the month of Tishri) they had it as a custom to say in the midst of Shomea Tefillah: "Moreover, O Lo-rd our G-d, watch and deliver this year, with all its produce, from all kinds of destruction, and from all kinds of afflictions. Let her substance remain, and let there be hope, and satisfaction, and peace, just as in the good years." (Hebrew: ושמרה והצילה יי' אלהינו את השנה הזאת ואת כל מיני תבואתה מכל מיני משחית ומכל מיני פורעניות ותן לה אחרית ותקוה ושובע ושלום וברכה כשנים הטובות) If you've noticed, this addition is found usually in "Birkas Hashanim" and said only during the winter months, but never in Tishri!

However, saying this at the time of harvest was to ensure a good harvest.

So, if there is any place on earth where the harvest season falls during the usual winter months of Dec.-Feb., when rain for them is harmful, I see no problem for them making use of the format prescribed by the Sages when asking rain in Winter. Only, let him also ask for G-d's blessings during the harvest, putting his supplication in that part of the prayer known as "Shomea Tefillah." In this way, they keep that teaching of Rebbe as taught in the Jerusalem Talmud.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Yossi Azose:
"I believe the Rambam in the Piroush Hamishnayoth wrote that the hakhamim would never impose a nusah of tefila on a community that was out of touch with reality of their situation, despite the general prohibition of 'meshane miteva shetave'u hakhamim'."

Yossi,


Rabbeinu Asher (הרא"ש) notices a contradiction in the words of Rambam. In his Commentary on Mishnah Taanis 1:3, he wrote:
"...The halacha is in accordance with Rabban Gamliel. But all this applies to when [one asks for rain] in the land of Israel and [in] that [country] which is like unto her. Likewise, all that which is said further along [in our Mishnah] regarding the times of fastings, [also] refers to the land of Israel, or [to] any place wherein its climate is similar to her climate. But in the other countries, behold, their supplication [for rain] should be at that time which is fitting for rain in that particular place, and, lo, that time is as if it were the 7th of Marcheshvan... Since there are countries where the rainy season does not begin except in Nisan, and there are countries where, during [the month of] Marcheshvan, it is summer, and the rains during that [month] are not for a blessing, but rather, causes loss and destruction..."

It is clearly implied here that one makes his supplication for rain in its regular place, "Birkas Hashanim," during the season in which it rains in his country, even if it were summer!

But in Rambam's "Mishne Torah" (Hilchos Tefillah 2:17), he writes:
"In places where they need rain in the summer months, for example [in] the far distant isles of the sea, they ask for rain when they need it at the [blessing known as] 'Shomea Tefillah.' "

Note that Rambam, in his "Mishne Torah," did not repeat the wording used in his Commentary on the Mishnah, where he said that they ask for rain in the summer (where it is customary for rain to fall in the summer), placing the request in "Birkas Hashanim." Perhaps Rambam no longer held to that opinion. But I was told that Rambam, as is his custom, whenever he brings down teachings in his "Mishne Torah," sticks as closely as possible to the very language employed by the Sages in our Talmud and, sometimes, he does this without explaining the exact application of that text. This seems to have happened with the halacha in Hilchos Tefillah 2:17.

Sincerely,
David

David:

Thanks for the citation of the Rabenu Asher (also referenced by Laurence above). I went back and looked at the Teshuvat Haro"sh (4:10) where he discusses the apparent contradiction between the Piroush Hamishnayot and the Yad. He resolves the apparent inconsistency by drawing a distinction between individuals or satellite communities (a category for which the Rambam uses the term "iye hayam" [distant isles]) in the Yad, where the proper place for rain would be in Shome'a Tefila, and large communities where a request for such places should be made in brikat hashanim. It is for this reason (vis. the Rosh's understanding of the Rambam) that the Ro"sh tried to institute the recital of "veten tal umattar" into birkat hashanim during the Summer months in Europe, since rain was in fact needed during those months. But he ends the teshuva by saying that his attempt to institute this failed and even he reverted to the standard custom so as not to create different factions (agudot agudot).

As an aside, this teshuva offers a good rebuttal to some points made in an article recently published in the Review of Rabbinic Judaism. The article was written by a certain scholar wherein he discusses the Anti-Maimonidean undercurrents that existed in Spain in the years leading up to the Expulsion. Overall, the article raises some compelling points. However, among other radical assertions, the author criticizes the Rosh for allegedly de-legitimizing the Rambam and other Andalusian rabbis, and generally implies that the disgreements the Rosh and other Castillian scholars had with the Rambam and his followers were considerably short of being "leshem shamayim". Furthermore, he seems to denigrate the Rosh for considering himself the supreme authority in Spain and for being over-imposing in his rulings even in the face of opposition.

This teshuva is but one clear example of how the Rosh a)showed great deference to the Rambam and b)acceded to the consensus opinion for the sake of conformity, despite differing from his own view. (ve'en kan makom leha'arikh)

- Yossi

B"H

Yossi,

You have summarised very well that opinion held by Rabbeinu Asher (הרא"ש), and how that he sought to rectify the apparent contradiction between the two Rambams by saying there is a difference between "the isles of the sea," on the one hand, and ordinary "countries," on the other.
But, as I'm sure you are aware, Maran (Rabbi Yoseph Karo) strongly disagrees with this view, and has written in his "Kessef Mishne" (a commentary on Rambam's Yad): "But as for me, in my most impoverished [state of mind], it just doesn't seem to me [to be reasonable] this dicotomous explanation as explained by Rabbeinu [Asher] - [viz.], that the isles of the sea are not called a country."

ואני בעניי לא נראה לי פירוש חילוק זה שבאר רבנו באיי הים לא יקרא ארץ

Even Rabbi Yoseph Qafih z"l points out a fallacy with Rabbeinu Asher (הרא"ש) where he said that there is a difference between the land of Israel and Babel (Babylonia) when it comes to making mention of "Mashiv Haruach U'morid Hageshem" in the second blessing of Tefillas Shemonah Esreh. Rabbi Qafih z"l points out that in the mere mentioning of rain in the second blessing (Gevuroth), it is the same in Babel (Babylonia) as it is in the land of Israel. In both places, everyone makes mention of the rain beginning with Shemeni Atzereth and ending with the first day of Passover.

I think it is fair to assume that Rambam changed his mind when he came to writing his Code of Jewish Law (Mishne Torah), and no longer viewed as halacha what he had written in his Commentary on the Mishnah.

Sincerely,
David

B"H

Yossi,

I found the following commentary on the very subject matter which we've been discussing here, and I think it will further clarify some of your questions earlier raised on this thread:

(Excerpt from Maharitz's Commentary on the Siddur "Etz Hayim")

On the Times Permissible to Ask for Rain (In Yemen)


Places where they need rain during the Summer time, such as [in] the distant isles of the sea, and as [in] the land of Yemen which is generally included amongst them, they are no longer able to ask [for rain] in the [part of the prayer known as] "Birkas Hashanim" (the Benediction For Rain), but rather in [that part known as] "Shomea Tefillah." (Thus have Maimonides and the Shulhan Arukh, section # 117, both written.) The asking [of rain] in "Shomea Tefillah" in this, our own place, the land of Yemen, is from the beginning of the Evening prayer ('Arvith) on the first day of the intermediate days of Passsover until the beginning of the Afternoon prayer (Minhah) on the eve of the first Festival Day of Sukkos. Now I have noticed the congregation who have it as their custom, from the intermediate days of Sukkoth until the sixtieth day of that season, (1) to say [a portion of that part of the prayer, beginning] with "O Lo-rd our G-d, watch and deliver this year, etc.," yet will they skip over [that part that says], "and give dew and rain [upon the face of the earth]," and it is considered a good thing when they have it done this way, praying for the year; (2) for how many times, owing to iniquities, are there [bad] occurrences that happen to fall out in these days from irregularities [that are otherwise uncommon] to other years. However, despite this, it is incumbent to teach them to skip over [that portion of the prayer which says], "and bless her with favourable rains," for you can have no request which is greater than this, although in our own prayer version we do not have this statement. Thus is its import in the book "Hamanhig," section # 56. Let him look there [for a greater discussion of this subject]. Likewise is the custom widespread [in all places], [even] before I saw the words of "Hamanhig." I have also seen the Turei Zahav, who wrote in section # 113 that it was not permitted to make mention of any request for rain in [that part of the prayer known as] "Shomea Tefillah," except when praying singularly, [but] not in a quorum [of ten adult males] (Let him look there [for a discussion on this subject.), who gathered [the same] by looking scrupulously at the language employed [in the Talmud], viz., "The people of Nineveh sent unto Rebbe, etc. (Taanith 14b), and he answered them: 'You are to be considered as single individuals'." Let him look there [for a full discussion of this matter]. But after begging his forgiveness, and after licking up the dust of his feet, it should be said rather that what [he meant] by saying they are to be considered as single individuals is that they are not to ask [for rain] in the "Birkas Hashanim" as when all the world stands in need [of rain], [and as it was] thus prescribed by our Rabbis of blessed memory in its fixed place of "Birkas Hashanim." Rather, [it should be said] only in "Shomea Tefillah." It is precisely for this reason you will find that he [who asked Rebbe the very question] prolonged his speech in order to say, "Or [should it be said in that part of the prayer known as] Shomea Tefillah?," seeing that there was a difficulty [here]! He was required to answer him with brevity, "You are to be considered as single individuals." So, then, rather, he meant to say that just like the entire world who asks [for rain] at [that part of the prayer known as] "Birkas Hashanim" - whether the [entire] congregation [is together] or whether there is [only] a single individual, so, too, is it with the blessing [known as] "Shomea Tefillah" - whether the [entire] congregation [is together] or whether there is [only] a single individual.

It is, furthermore, possible [to say] that he intimated to us [thereby] that they are not allowed to ask [for rain during the Summer months] in the "Birkas Hashanim," even the earth in its entirety, except only in "Shomea Tefillah." Perhaps it was from this conclusion that the wise men belonging to the generation of Rabbeinu Asher disputed with Rabbeinu Asher in his responsum [over this issue], for which reason Rabbi Yitzchak al-Fassi, Maimonides and Maran have [all] written the halacha without elaboration in this particular instance, and have not differentiated, leaving us with the assumption that there is no difference between the majority and single individuals [in this case]. [But saying so would be] a great novelty! For the exponents of our laws should have [at least] made mention [of this matter] to us! Moreover, all the exponents of our laws, within their books, have written [the matter] without clarifying [it], neither have they made a differentiation [in this case], and thus has it been the practice since ancient times, whilst no one dares open his mouth [in contradiction] or to complain [about it]. Now, once again, after I did write all this, I found [the matter addressed by] the Rabbi of "Shiblei Haleqet," in section # 9, whose words are these: "But if the world stands in need of rain after they have ceased from asking [for rains], they ask during [that part of the prayer known as] 'Shomea Tefillah,' even within the congregation, for they are considered as single individuals, just as it is brought down in Tractate Ta'anios." So far his words. So, here, you have it explicitly stated, [in] the words of the Savant, that they ask [for rains] even in the congregation!

_______________________________________________

FOOTNOTES:

(1) Which time corresponds roughly with the 4th of December in most parts of the Western world. In Yemen, however, they began to ask for rain in its regular part of the prayer close to the season of Chanukka.

(2) Rabbi Yoseph Qafih, of blessed memory, explains this in his commentary on Rambam's "Mishne Torah," Hilchos Tefillah 2:16-17 (footnote # 36), writing that in Yemen, during the months of harvest (e.g. during the months of Tishri, Nisan and Ayar) they had it as a custom to say in the midst of Shomea Tefillah: "Moreover, O Lo-rd our G-d, watch and deliver this year, with all its produce, from all kinds of destruction, and from all kinds of afflictions. Let her substance remain, and let there be hope, and satisfaction, and peace, just as in the good years."