I've often wondered about this practice when I see it. I always believed that we were to imagine our behaviour generally as if we are in the presence of a king - that at any point in the day, one should pause to consider if you would behave the way you do if a king was present. Then one could measure if the behaviour was correct or not.

I therefore do not understand how people can shochel when they davven. If I were standing talking to a king, queen, president, prime minister etc the last thing I would do is sway backwards and forwards when speaking to them!

I once read a story about Reb Moshe ztz'l, who stood straight with his head bowed when davvening. When asked why, he said that was how he was made to stand before a Russian army officer, and it was the most humble position he had felt, therefore he felt ot was fitting to stand before HaSehm this way.

In Rama 48 at the end of his intro says someone should “Shukel” because “All my bones praise Hashem.” See MB that there are those that argue and one should do whichever helps his Kavanah. (See also MB 95:7 that says someone should “Shokul”

I think the reason is to put your whole body into the service of Hashem.

Michael, I totally understand where you're coming from. There are times that I'll see someone shukelling and it looks like that they're preparing for takeoff.... I think that it needs to be done in moderation.

Rav Chaim, what if one finds it disturbing his concentration, then it appears that it would be okay to be ramrod straight [except for the bendings in shmoneh esrei that are required]?

I think I heard it said that for those that do shukel it is to help them maintain concentration - and that if we see someone doing it vigorously we should have sympathy that they are trying so hard to maintain concentration.

Regarding putting one's whole body into service - is it really the whole body? or the whole spine, that the rabbis had in mind when recommending shukelling?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

Regarding putting one's whole body into service - is it really the whole body? or the whole spine, that the rabbis had in mind when recommending shukelling?

spine may be more common, but i have seen full body shukling. don't get too close, or at least make sure you have insurance.

Sometimes shocheling is downright comical! I'm sorry!

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Sometimes shocheling is downright comical! I'm sorry!

Yea, and what about those who do it to "prove" that they are "better"?

The point I am trying to make is that avodat HaShem should be sincere. I find myself shochelling without thought, and then realise it doesn't aid my concentration at all.

I have seen congregants shochelling with grimaces on their faces, and unfortunately it actually makes me question their sincerity rather than appreciate it.

Rav Chaim has pointed out the 'source' of why we shochel. I wonder if shochelling meant something different to what we know today?

quote:

I have seen congregants shochelling with grimaces on their faces, and unfortunately it actually makes me question their sincerity rather than appreciate it.

and:


Yea, and what about those who do it to "prove" that they are "better"?

Whatever happened to dan lkaf zchus???

Even if you personally do not find intensified kavana through shokelling- when you see another person "ready for take-off", perhaps we should assume that they have reached a higher madrega, and perhaps the grimace on their face is from losing consiousness of how they appear to others while they themselves are soaring on spiritual heights!

(And as for as for people-watching during minyan, I am sure a yid would only be engaging in this activity for a lofty reason and for the increase of his own person avodah...)

Regarding the suggestion of standing straight with your head bowed, I was told in Hebrew school that Jews do not maintain their heads in a bowed position (nor kneel, nor prostrate themselves) because that is reminiscent of how people used to pray to idols. Is this correct? Also, assuming it is, have I been correct in the following situation? When I am attending a large public gathering where there is a Christian-oriented prayer at the beginning and everyone is told (or automatically) bows their heads, I have not. (I also don't close my eyes as they do.) If I choose to make my own private prayer at this time, how would you recommend I stand? Also, is it a commandment to shochel? At synagogue, I see some people doing it and some not.

quote:

Originally posted by Bracha:

quote:

I have seen congregants shochelling with grimaces on their faces, and unfortunately it actually makes me question their sincerity rather than appreciate it.

and:


Yea, and what about those who do it to "prove" that they are "better"?

Whatever happened to dan lkaf zchus???

Even if you personally do not find intensified kavana through shokelling- when you see another person "ready for take-off", perhaps we should assume that they have reached a higher madrega, and perhaps the grimace on their face is from losing consiousness of how they appear to others while they themselves are soaring on spiritual heights!

(And as for as for people-watching during minyan, I am sure a yid would only be engaging in this activity for a lofty reason and for the increase of his own person avodah...)

I'm afraid you haven't got the gist of what I meant. I did not say that I 'people-watch'. It is that it happens frequently when I am trying to concentrate and even looking in my siddur, that I see people shochelling out the corner of my eye. This can be very distracting, and unnecessary.

I admire your giving the benefit of the doubt, but I personally feel it is better to stand still and focus on the siddur than sway backwards and forwards saying tefilla by heart.

I can understand and respect your position Mr. Lewis. Everyone has their personal comfort to take into account.

It was previously asked on the forum if shokeling is a commandment- no it is not, but I would say it is a nature/nurture issue which is an accepted norm in Jewish society.

From the time children are small they see others around them shokeling and they learn to immitate the movements, and carry on this tradition throughout their lives.
However, i would also say that is comes naturally to many Jews.


My honorable mother once told me a story about goyim who wanted to infiltrate the yeshiva in a certain town and test the Rabbi's wisdom- so they took a small goyishe boy who looked Jewish and dressed him as a Jew and somehow enrolled him in the mesivta and sent him to the first day of school. He was sent away within the day. It was later asked of the Rabbi why he sent the child away- and he answered that it was obvious that he was not a Jewish child because he did not shokel like all of the other boys as they learned, because shokeling is unique to the Jewish neshama.

a commentary i heard on why Jews shokel:

The soul of a Jew is like a flame- ever reaching upwards towards shamayim, and the body is like the candle which attaches the flame to the lower realms. The flame as it tries to rise higher- flickers back and forth, so too with the neshama of a yid. A Jew who is passionately engaged in davening or learning will have a fire ignited in his neshama and it has such a strong force on the Jew that his body is affected and he shokels- just as the flame trying to ascend to the heights.

The Kuzari if I recall correctly, gives two reasons for swaying during the study of Torah. One reason is since the Torah is compared to fire so should we when studying emulate the flicker of a flame. Another reason is to stimulate our inner fire so that we should learn with enthusiasm and feeling.
It always puzzled me about this that the constant physical movements would detract from clear headed concentration. The answer is probably, that it's more important to serve Hashem with our whole being, which includes the body and the heart than just the intellect alone. Compare the lively tumult of a yeshiva study hall with the deathly silence of a library.

quote:

Originally posted by Bracha:

quote:

I have seen congregants shochelling with grimaces on their faces, and unfortunately it actually makes me question their sincerity rather than appreciate it.

and:


Yea, and what about those who do it to "prove" that they are "better"?

Whatever happened to dan lkaf zchus???

Even if you personally do not find intensified kavana through shokelling- when you see another person "ready for take-off", perhaps we should assume that they have reached a higher madrega, and perhaps the grimace on their face is from losing consiousness of how they appear to others while they themselves are soaring on spiritual heights!

(And as for as for people-watching during minyan, I am sure a yid would only be engaging in this activity for a lofty reason and for the increase of his own person avodah...)

My point is that there ought to be a middle path and act according to Halacha.

Constant Shockeling is also wrong, as one has to differentiate between the times when one is bending their knee and bowing during Shemoneh Esrei in the first Bracha, Modim, and the second to last Bracha, one should stop shockeling, yet some don't realize that.

So one should not for example rush the pace of their davening and bowing to maintain the beat of shockeling?

Shochellin like the prayers have a beganning point a middle point and an end point. the essence of it is to arouse our body to in helping us concertate on what we are saying (as oppose to the things around us) however we should come to a point when one no longer does shochel but stop for they then reach a point of perfect conceraction on the Divine. the Baal Shem Tov taught in the Last will and Testement somthing to the effects by overly doing it will have no effect.

as far as praying on the ground or standing with our head bowed if one desire to do this in private in the right condition are being meet then they may.

the whole idea remember prayer is like mediation and there are many methods dancing, prostating oneself on the ground, Shochelling but even in meditation there comes a point when the body stop all movement because the person has complete focus on what they were mediating on.

if you want sources and for me to quote them then please quest them.

my personal oppion about shochelling during study of torah is to make it more lively and helps to stay awake when you get to the boring parts when your tired. as well keeps you warm when your cold...

mack k

there are boring parts???

mkf

I would like to point out, that to many people, the act of Shokelling helps the thought process. See the Rama 48 that begins with that someone should Shukell while learning. The MB brings that everyone agrees to this, while praying is a Machlokes. When you’re Shukelling with a tempo, or moving your hands, it helps the pace of the thinking, like a baton paces a symphony. Thus your whole essence gets into what you’re saying. (Freinds ask me if I could speak if someone holds down my hands.J )

Quote" I have seen congregants shochelling with grimaces on their faces, and unfortunately it actually makes me question their sincerity rather than appreciate it."

Grimacing is usually a sign of concentration. When you observe someone trying to come up with a solution or figure a piece of the puzzle or a deep Gemarah, he grimaces.


Quote "Yea, and what about those who do it to "prove" that they are "better"?"

This can be said on any person doing something good, that he’s trying to prove that he’s better than others. If someone’s a Masmid, can’t you say that all he’s trying to do is be better than others? Rather we should say that he's trying to do what is good.

Well might as well drop in on this discussion.

It is ironic that one of the major complaints that the mitnagdim had against the chassidim is there shuckling during the shemoneh esreh where the halacha is that one should stand straight (you can shuckle everywhere else, it is considered a positive action). The mitnagdim now shukel like the chassidim.
It is just as ironic that people think that shukling during the shemoneh esreh is somehow better when it is technically worse. (Did I ever mention how some people are so machmir they are makel?)

Aryeh Shore