The Neturei Kartah bunch managed to get my e-mail from my column on Arutzsheva and I get their propaganda from time to time. I know that many in the Hareidi and Hassidic communities do not accept the concept of medina, althought they are willing to live in the land of Israel within that medina.

Is Zionism contrary to Torah?

This is a hard subject. I do think that it is hard to argue that Yisrael could have come into existence again as a Jewish State without HaSh-m's involvment. Obviously it is flawed greatly in its secular attitudes. Even flawed, however, there is now a place for Jews to run. What's more--the place He wanted us to begin with.

Neturai philosophy is a puzzlement to me. As you have already pointed out, they gripe about it vehemently, but still continue to take advantage of Yisrael's status as its own governing entity in the context of the Jewish paradigm. I may not be well enough versed on the matter to come up with really productive ideas on this matter--as there are things happening there which I know little/nothing of. From the outside looking in, here is what I see:

On the one hand, we have G-d's will. ON the other, HaSh-m's will. The anti-Zionist argument is (in a simplified nutshell) that HaSh-m will set up Yisrael in His own good time without any interference from us, thankyou very much.

Well, that is fine, except these same people who buy this argument (and it has some merit) likewise continue to remind all Jews that it is our job to repair the world (tikkun olam), and that insodoing, we usher in Moshiach. Soooo...can we personally do those things which entice Him to get involved or not??

My answer is a resounding "YES". Otherwise--why pray, if we can change nothing?? (I don't mean commanded rote prayers; I mean compelling prayers or supplicative prayer.) Frankly, if HaSH-m wasn't planning to use this, I seriously doubt He would have allowed it to come together--NOT because man can't do bad things due to his own free will--obviously! But because it was nothing short of a miracle that Yisrael gained statehood again, and I honestly think it took help from above to accomplish that.

To my mind, HaSh-m's and man's (Jews') will is together on Yisrael's establishment at this time as opposed to 'some obscure time in the future, when G-d will somehow miraculously hand Yisrael to the Jews without any disgruntlement on anyone else's part'. This is highly unlikely, since it has never really been prophesied to be that perfect world until Moshiach comes-- Is this when they are expecting it to happen??

I don't think the Neturei Kartahs are good guides for Judaism to take cues from. They still make allegations that Zionism is likened to Nazism. It is just out there and uncalled for as a comment, I think. If they are fringe to even strict Orthodoxy--that should say something.

As to the basic assertions of Zionism, (nevermind for the moment, the secularism which is an obvious and horrible flaw) are they so very different from that which most Jews have believed from the beginning? That HaSh-m has given us this land forever?

Do feel free to correct, as I said, I am not the most knowledgeable on the subject and it is a little arrogant to comment on politics which occur in Yisrael when I have never lived there. These, rather, are simply my broad-brush views on this topic in general.

Yocheved,

Thanks for your post. I have a position on this issue but I'm not even sure it's a correct one, that's why I posted the question. I feel that Israel today is not a Jewish state. I believe that HaShem allowed us to have the state but He expects us to make it a halachic Jewish state. If we don't we might lose it again. I believe that it's our job to move the state of Israel in the right direction. But unlike Neturei Kartah, I don't believe we should destroy it nor should we be in concert with the enemies of Israel.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure that my synthesis is necessarily correct. I believe anyone who is deriving benefit from the state of Israel today should make his or her contribution. The "evil Zionists" who created the state of Israel spilled their blood in the Shoa and fighting the Arabs from the very beginning. That is worth something. Their sacrifice has merit regardless of what we may think of them. Most were misguided and many are doing it simply for survival, but I belive the hand of HaShem is on this enterprise.

Avi

quote:

Yocheved,

Thanks for your post. I have a position on this issue but I'm not even sure it's a correct one, that's why I posted the question. I feel that Israel today is not a Jewish state. I believe that HaShem allowed us to have the state but He expects us to make it a halachic Jewish state. If we don't we might lose it again. I believe that it's our job to move the state of Israel in the right direction. But unlike Neturei Kartah, I don't believe we should destroy it nor should we be in concert with the enemies of Israel.

I agree with you completely. Yes, I think HaSh-m was in on this endeavor--but we HAVE to take responsibility for it. Yisrael was NEVER meant to be a secular state. EVER. HaSh-m made that quite clear. So now, we are faced with doing THERE, that which He commanded us to do EVERYWHERE ELSE. Repair it.

quote:

I have a position on this issue but I'm not even sure it's a correct one, that's why I posted the question. I feel that Israel today is not a Jewish state. I believe that HaShem allowed us to have the state but He expects us to make it a halachic Jewish state. If we don't we might lose it again. I believe that it's our job to move the state of Israel in the right direction. But unlike Neturei Kartah, I don't believe we should destroy it nor should we be in concert with the enemies of Israel.

Very well put.
We have to differentiate between the idea of Jewish State and the way the present State is run.
There are those like the Satmar Rebbe who was against the idea of a Jewish state even if it was lead by Religous Rabbis.
Others criticize the fact that the leaders and Judges go against the Torah in leading the STate.

We need to turn the State into a religous state that follows the Torah.
That is why we need more suuport in Israel from more religous Jews comming.

Yes, yes and yes. You know this brings up the idea of whether or not the State should (in its ideal form) should even BE Democratic. Everyone sings the praises of Democratic governments here in the West, but the truth is, if the State of Yisrael was run according to the mandates given by HaSh-m in the past--the State would better fall under the definition of a Theocracy. Not that HaSh-m's Land can really be compartmentalized that way, but as a general idea, I think the argument couldbe supported that one of the problems right now IS that it is being run fairly Democraticly. The problem is--when has the mob been right? The mind of man is ever-changing, and if he is given a "vote" as to what happens in Yisrael, then the country would reflect that "present mood" (as it does today--the masses in Judaism are by and large irreligious...ergo... a secular state.) If it were run Theocratically, then the head Rabbis would implement the halachic issues as they deem correct in the eyes of Torah/HaSh-m, and any arguments would be decided by themselves. Their own "votes" would be the only ones that would matter--those votes by those chosen men educated on halacha to the nth degree. That would be the extent of "democracy " as it were.

Yocheved
You are right. People think Democracy is so great. But where does it lead us.
However it is also theoretically possible to have a democratic halachic state.
The government is obliged to follow Halacha as determined by the Rabbinic Court.(whether it be a Sanhedrin or a similar Beit Din)
Anything the government does which would not be according to the halacha , would be overrulled by that Rabbinic Court.
I am not saying that is the way I think the government should be, but just suggesting it as a possibility.

You also have to realize that the Rabbis have to be prepared to run a State according to Halacha. Today most of the Rabbis would rather have the State be a secular State so they don't have to deal with new and difficult issues. After all the Shulchan Aruch did not deal with issues related to having a State and running a State.
The Rambam did deal with many of the issues but even when using the Rambam the Rabbis need to deal with todays issues.

Baruch,

I agree. A "halachic" state is not a "religious" state. It's not a state run by rabbis. It's astate run according to halacha. We need a mechon medina where all the civics of a halachic state can be developed. As you say, the Rambam may be a good place to start but we need a whole corpus of civics to make a halachic state work.

About Democracy; we are too enamored with it. There is too much democracy in Israel....verging on chaos, with everyone and his cousin wanting to be prima dona. They would go as far a lynching a man like Katzav in order to be the next prima dona. This is not how the Kadosh Baruch Hu intended it.

Avi

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
The Neturei Kartah bunch managed to get my e-mail from my column on Arutzsheva and I get their propaganda from time to time. I know that many in the Hareidi and Hassidic communities do not accept the concept of medina, althought they are willing to live in the land of Israel within that medina.

Is Zionism contrary to Torah?

Avi,

After reading the responses given I unfortunately feel that I must respond to your question. But first let’s clarify. It seems to me that there are two issues here. 1. Zionism and 2. Neturei Kartah.

Let’s start with your first question:

1. What’s wrong with Zionism?

A. To answer we must first distinguish between Torah views and Non-Torah views.

According to the Torah, Eretz Yisroel is a precious gift to the Jews. The depth of this gift is only truly understood by the Tzadikim. The Gedolim throughout history have written great things about Eretz Yisroel and have praised moving or at least making the trip to Eretz Yisroel up until and including today. It is worthy to read Reb Nachman’s statements on Eretz Yisroel. Also, I know Gedolim that encourage moving to Eretz Yisroel. These points are clearly understood to anyone who is Charedei.

Non-Torah view of Eretz Yisroel: The reason for the Holocaust is that we (Jews) did not have our own country in which we could defend ourselves. Therefore we will establish a Jewish State liken to the rest of the world, only a Jewish one. As Herzl put it (not a direct quote – couldn’t find it) “I dream of a Jewish State in which a Jewish criminal is arrested by a Jewish Police Officer and tried by a Jewish Judge”. [It should be noted that Herzl didn’t really care where the “Jewish Land” was as seen in this quote, “Is Palestine or Argentine to be preferred? The Society will take what is given to it and what is selected by the public opinion of the Jewish people.” http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/theodorher317348.html

The point being that the “Jewish State” was not based on a desire to fulfill the Mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, but rather the desire to create a Jewish “Gentile” State. The Jews that founded the modern state were desirous to through off the shackles of Torah and live akin to the Goyim, just differing in race.


Is this contrary to Torah, you ask?


Please note (having lived here for over 11 years) that the Government until today is not only hostile to Torah Judaism, but it still seeks to uproot it. The only thing that’s gotten in their way is the present Arab crisis. As Golda Meir is quoted, “Once we finish dealing with the Arab problem we will deal with the Charedei problem”.

Torah Jews move to Eretz Yisroel regardless of who’s in control. Nonreligious Jews move here purely based on idealism, an idealism that is not kosher.

Quote from Yocheved:
The anti-Zionist argument is (in a simplified nutshell) that HaSh-m will set up Yisrael in His own good time without any interference from us, thank you very much.

Yocheved – this may be Neturei Kartah’s view, but not the opinion of the majority of anti-Zionist Jews. The Torah Judaism opinion is that a Jewish State HAS TO be based on TORAH and run by Torah abiding Jews! Anything less is not exceptable to be called a "Jewish State".

Quote from Baruch:
There are those like the Satmar Rebbe who was against the idea of a Jewish state even if it was lead by Religous Rabbis.

Baruch – I don’t believe that your statement is correct and request you back it up with sources.


Question:
2. Neturei Kartah – Where do they stand?

A. I think their recent shameful actions and the extreme outcry from every denomination of Torah Judaism including Satmar clearly shows that they are considered by ALL as a bunch of whackos with an agenda. I personally see them as Leftist in black garb. There is no difference in my eyes between them and Meretz. They are both anti-semites.

Satmar, on the other hand, have a legitimate outlook against the Israeli government. As Rav Shach said, “Our views are the same, just our methods of dealing with the situation differ”. (Not an exact quote. Look in HaRav Shach Conversations, Feldheim Publishers for the direct quote.)

I hope this clarifies things.

May we (Klal Yisroel) be Zoche to pull through these terrible times.

-Magedman

Magedman,

Thank you for such an eloquent response. I think we are all in agreement that what we have in Israel is not a Jewish state. I also agree that the manner in which the state was established was far from kosher, but now that it exists, we have an obligation to make it kosher. How to achieve that Jewish state is the challenge.

However, the more observant Jews make aliyah, the better the chance of ridding ourselves of the aspiring Bolshevic Riviera to establish a truly Jewish state.

Avi

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
Magedman,

I also agree that the manner in which the state was established was far from kosher, but now that it exists, we have an obligation to make it kosher.

Avi

Avi,

Although I personally agree with you in approach, I don't emphatically agree that the ONLY way to tackle the problem is to work with the government. I'm not so sure who are more correct, the Satmar Chasidim or us. One things for sure, either way it must be done LShem Shamiyim and not for ulterior motives.

-Magedman

Magedman,

I'm not sure I'm advocating that we should work with the government. I don't believe in the current government nor do I believe in the current governmental structure. However, I believe that while we are working there has to be some sort of order, government and rule of law. In that regard we are stuck with what we have until we establish a malchut.

I also believe that one cannot do much good in jail. This government has a way of putting people in jail who have ideas not dissimilar to ours. So how does one work to abolish the current system without getting oneself in jail where one becomes useless. People like Faglin, Nadia Matar, Deri and others know this first hand.

Avi

quote:

Quote from Yocheved:
The anti-Zionist argument is (in a simplified nutshell) that HaSh-m will set up Yisrael in His own good time without any interference from us, thank you very much.

Yocheved – this may be Neturei Kartah’s view, but not the opinion of the majority of anti-Zionist Jews. The Torah Judaism opinion is that a Jewish State HAS TO be based on TORAH and run by Torah abiding Jews! Anything less is not exceptable to be called a "Jewish State".

Magedman: You ar correct, and I should have made that profoundly clear. Thankyou for pointing it out, and pardon me.

quote:

We need a mechon medina where all the civics of a halachic state can be developed. As you say, the Rambam may be a good place to start but we need a whole corpus of civics to make a halachic state work.

Avi,

Interestingly, R. Eliezer Waldenberg, author of the Tzitz Eliezer, actually wrote a sefer called Hilkhot HaMedinah many years ago - which dealt with all these issues. It was not published until after his death (when this happened the badatz of the eidah hachareidis banned all of his works that were published postumusly - as far as I know this was the only one of his works published after his death).
Reently it was republished in a very limited number - so very few people have a copy (I do not).

Gilad,

Very interesting. Thank you. If you come across a copy let me know. I would be interested in one. Do you know why they put a kerem on R. Eliezer Waldenberg works? What was aggregious about them? I thought R. Eliezer Waldenberg just passed away in November. When did they find time to publish then republish his book?

Avi

I would love a copy of that. Any ideas on where to find one?? Y.

I am not clear on all the details. You are correct that he was nitar very recently. perhaps a limited number were published until the ban was made public.

I am trying to find someone with a copy - don't know if I will e able to find it...

quote:

Quote from Baruch:
There are those like the Satmar Rebbe who was against the idea of a Jewish state even if it was lead by Religous Rabbis.

Baruch – I don’t believe that your statement is correct and request you back it up with sources

Magedman
I truly wish you can prove me wrong.
But the Satmar view is that we shouldn't form a Jewish state at all.
They base this on the 3 oaths. They aren't the only ones who hold this way.

The source for this is the books the Satmar Rebbe Rav Yoel Teitelbaum wrote.
Vayoel Moshe (1958)
Al HaGeulah VeAl HaTemurah

I don't have the books in front of me to quote from them.

But see this biography on Wikipedia which I believe is preety acurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Teitelbaum

quote from that link

"The Satmar view is that only the Jewish Messiah can bring about a new Jewish government in the Holy Land, and even if a government declaring itself religious would be formed before the Messiah, it would be illegitimate due to its improper arrogation of power."

quote:

I also agree that the manner in which the state was established was far from kosher, but now that it exists, we have an obligation to make it kosher. How to achieve that Jewish state is the challenge.

However, the more observant Jews make aliyah, the better the chance of ridding ourselves of the aspiring Bolshevic Riviera to establish a truly Jewish state.

Avi I agree with you that what we must do now is do everything we can to make the State kosher.

I am not sure that the problem was so much the way the State was formed. The problem was more the way the leaders ran the State - the laws they made. Although their intentions may have not been the correct ones, much of what they did was good. They faught for controll for the land. They settled the land. They built houses in the land. They took great efforts to bring Jews from all over the world to Israel (including special operations to bring the Jews of Yeman and later Ethiopia)

The fact that they made the State Secular with the intention to make it like all other nations is what the problem was. The rules of Democracy and freedom being holier than Torah law is also the problem.

quote:

Although I personally agree with you in approach, I don't emphatically agree that the ONLY way to tackle the problem is to work with the government. I'm not so sure who are more correct, the Satmar Chasidim or us. One things for sure, either way it must be done LShem Shamiyim and not for ulterior motives

The Satmar Chasidim simply believe that they should wait for the Messiah and everything will fall into place just like that.

quote:

I also believe that one cannot do much good in jail. This government has a way of putting people in jail who have ideas not dissimilar to ours. So how does one work to abolish the current system without getting oneself in jail where one becomes useless. People like Faglin, Nadia Matar, Deri and others know this first hand

How exactly we should act today is a hard question and I don't think there is a simple answer.
Should we work within the government or completely separate ourselves for it? Should we take part in elections? the army?

Today we are stuck with a difficult situation.
But in order to go forward we first must establish what are goals are and understand where we went wrong.

People like Feiglin and Matar understand this.

I think it is easy to put all the blame on the Secular leaders. But why is the State secular and why is it led by Secular leaders?
It is because the Religous leadres allowed the secular leaders to take control. The Rabbis in Eurupe were against the idea of a State. In Israel the Ultra Orthodox secluded themselves in their neighborhoods and only cared about their yeshivot.

Rav Teichtel who was a Chasidic Rav in Eurupe wrote a book Em Habanim Smecha which I highly reccomend. (It is available in English translation)

During his life he didn't care about Israel or Aliya. He was like others in his community anti Zionist. When the Hollocost started he started questioning those views and wrote his book in hiding.

"Those who tremble at the word of HaShem, however stood on the side and refrained from sharing in the work. They stood by their age-old claim, 'it is preferable to sit and do nothing'. In the meantime these 'initiators' began rebuilding our holy land while the Orthodox Jews and Tzadikim stood aloof. It is clea that he who prepares prior to the Sabbath will eat on the Sabbath, and since the Orthodox did not toil, they have absolutely no influence in the Land. Those who toil and build have the influence, and they are masters of the Land. It is therefore no wonder that they are in control, for He who guards the fig tree will eat its fuit (Mishley 27:18)

...Had the God-fearing religous Jews been involved in this undertaking, our Holy Land would have a completely different, more sanctified, appearance form that it has now....
Now that they kept themselves at a distance, they should not wonder or question the situation, for they are at fault."
(EIM HABANIM SMECHA p23)

Unbelievable how correct Rav Teichtel was. And he wrote this in hidding during the Holocust before the State of Israel and before 1967.


Now there is also the Zionist Religous leaders. They weren't much better. Rather than leading a true Religous movment they simply took part and supported Secular Zionism and tried to be religous at the same time.

The leaders and Rabbis should deal with how to lead a modern Jewish State according to the Torah.

An example of the type of issues that need to be dealt with in Jewish State is Shmita.

Next year is the Shmita Years. How many in Israel are really interested in observing Shmita according to the Torah?
The Charedim don't care as they don't work the land. They buy vegetables and fruits from the Arabs all year and thus don't have a problem.
The Zionist don't want to support the Arabs so they came up with this loop hole of a fictitious sale of the land to Arabs in the Shmita year in order to work tha land like all other years.
A religous State entails finding solutions to observing the Shmita year in the true spirit of the Torah. We can all as a Nation help come up with funds to support those who work the land during the Shmita year and we can support such solutions like Otzar Beit Din (as was done in the time of the Mishna.)

Another Issue is Har Habayit. Anyone who follows the news can see the Hilul Hashem that is done on our holy site every day. Who is at fault? Well it is the secular government that allows the Arabs to controll and desecrate the place and limits Jewish Access to the place. However it is the religous leaders who ignored the issue of Har Habayit all these years. They put all their effort in fighting for Gush Katif , but did they fight for Har Habayit?
Only today are they waking up on this issue.


There are many more issues that need to be dealt with in a Jewish State. But we need to wake up and realize that we aren't in Galut anymore and mitzvot like Shmita need to be observed again.

quote:

R. Eliezer Waldenberg

Regarding R. Eliezer Waldenberg.

There was a very interesting article on him in the hebrew newspaper Ha Tzofe last week discussing his attitude on Israel.

http://www.hazofe.co.il/web/newsnew/katava6.asp?Modul=2...&gilayon=2999&mador=

The article discussed the issue of Aliya.
He said that even though the State is secular that is not an excuse and everyone should make aliya. He said that by having more Religous people in Israel the State will become more Kosher.

He also discussed his view on Shmita.

It is intersting as he isn't considered a Zionist Rabbi. I was not aware of his views until I read this article.