Wow!

I agree with you 99%! The only thing I'm not in agreement is the idea of a "religious" state. We don't want shades of Taliban. We want a halachic state. There is a difference. Perhaps it's a semantic one. A halachic state establishes laws with the understanding that not everyone can hold at the same level. A religious state does not.

As much disagreement and squabbling we see among our rabbis, I'm not sure they could run a state, let alone a better state than what we have now. I think most are too perochial to assume an executive role ovor a broad community with an assortment of views on issues. Certianly the Beit Din HaGadol should have the best Torah scholars alive. It needs to be a halachic state and its leadership should be from among the most qualified Jews who are also Torah observant scholars. That narrows the field quite a bit. Did you know that 25% of all Nobel Prizes have been awarded to Jews, 37% of all American Nobel Laureates are Jews. So there certainly is plenty of brain trust. The problem is Torah. Many of the Jews with expertise in civics, for example, such as Allan Dershowitz, who could make substantial contribution to our civics is so far from Torah. Therein lies our quandry. We know the problem but the solution really needs some wisdom. I guess that's why the Kadosh Baruch Hu will have to raise Moshiach.

A malchut is the type of government consistent with Torah but with a public that is so intoxicated with the idea of democracy, it will be a tough sell. Raising a leadership from within the Torah observant community, which has been aloof for such a long time, will also be difficult.
1. Are you familiar with "Lishkat HaGazit"?
2. Is Chareidi Leumi (CharDal) a real movement within Israel or just some term term thunk up by blog masters? I've heard the term thrown around but I've never met anyone who actually claims to be CharDal.

Avi

Besides everything else, I think the very problem of Zionism, even religious Zionism, is that it really have more to do with nationalistic fervor than any spiritual reason. They try to disguise it by wrapping it up in "holiness." But it's all just an excuse. The main reason is no different than the secular Zionist.

Let's take Baruch's comments.

"I am not sure that the problem was so much the way the State was formed. The problem was more the way the leaders ran the State - the laws they made. Although their intentions may have not been the correct ones, much of what they did was good. They faught for controll for the land. They settled the land. The built houses in the land. They took great efforts to bring from all over the world to Israel "

See how much he has respect and admiration to the many Rishayim that started the state that are amply burning in Gehenom. Though he says "Although their intentions may have not been the correct ones" which may infer that they may be the correct ones. but ends off in the positive "much of what they did was good" in the positive.

Yet we see his words for the roshei Yeshiva and Talmidei Chachumim that their Z'chusim the whole Jewish nation and Israel stands on. (No, the Nisim that the scuds didn't kill anyone was not because of some bumbling Zionist) Yet, he's just full of disdain to them "It is because the religious leadres alloweds the secular leaders to take control. The Rabbis in Eurupe were against the idea of a State. In Israel the Ultra Orthodox secluded themselves in their neighborhood and only cared abou their yeshivot."

besides that without their Yeshivos, Israel would have perished along time ago, but that's where Yidishkeit lays. Someone who has such BAD HASHKAFOS, that's full of admiration of Ben gurion and hatred towards Rav Shach, just shows how far off the Torah mind set they're on and how dangerous people these characters are.

quote:

I agree with you 99%! The only thing I'm not in agreement is the idea of a "religious" state. We don't want shades of Taliban. We want a halachic state. There is a difference. Perhaps it's a semantic one. A halachic state establishes laws with the understanding that not everyone can hold at the same level. A religious state does not

I agree

quote:

1. Are you familiar with "Lishkat HaGazit"?
2. Is Chareidi Leumi (CharDal) a real movement within Israel or just some term term thunk up by blog masters? I've heard the term thrown around but I've never met anyone who actually claims to be CharDal

1. Lishkat Hagazit. I heard of it but don't remember right now exactly what it is about.
2. Chardal - I think it is just a term to describe those who try on the one hand to be Charedim and still be nationalistic.

I personallay would like to see all orthodox groups unite to make a spiritual change in Israel.

quote:

Besides everything else, I think the very problem of Zionism, even religious Zionism, is that it really have more to do with nationalistic fervor than any spiritual reason. They try to disguise it by wrapping it up in "holiness." But it's all just an excuse. The main reason is no different than the secular Zionist.

Allthough you are making a generalization I actually partly agree.

What we need now is to focus on true spirituality and work with true intentions.
If you have any suggestions I would love to hear them. But we need to do more than just criticize.


Yes I do have admiration for many of the secular leaders who planned and established the State. I think they had tramendous accomplishments.
Regarding their intentions. I will clarify myself. Some of them had the wrong intentions. But they still took the right actions (again I am just discussing the formation of the state and NOT the way it was run or its laws)

You have to realize that some of the leaders like Hertzel came form completely secular backround. His familly has assimilated and he did not know the first thing about Judaism. Although he did not become a Bal Tsuva his work in the Zionist movement has brought him closer to Judaism and he started following many mitsvot that he did not know about as a child. Thus I wouldn't be so harsh in judging him.
It is interesting that although he envisioned a modern State like other nations he actually also envisioned the Religous sector building Beit Hamikdash on Har Habyait.

I don't have distain for Rabanim. In fact there were Rabbis in Eurupe like Rav Teichtel and Rav Tsvi Kalisher who discussed the ideas I am talking about.
I wish the Roshei Yeshivot and Talmidei Chachamim in Israel would have encouraged leadership among their students and taken an active role to make the State religous. I wish it was them and not the seculars who would have established the State.
We could have had an Halchic State today.

Rav Kahane was able to on the one hand call people like Ben Gurion a Rasha and on the other hand admire his courage and give him credit where it belongs.

Rav Chaim
The problem with your argument against my points is that you see everything as Black and White.
You can criticize Zionism on the one hand and even the Religous Zionist leaders but still argue that we should have a Jewish State. We are claiming that right now we should work at making this State an Halachic State.

When Bnei Israel came to Israel from Mitzrayim not everything was kosher right away. It took a few hundred years till King David took the lead. And it took some time till we had a Beit Hamikdash. Also during the second Temple Era not everything was Kosher all the time.

The current Israeli State is very far from Kosher, but we should work at changing it.

Rav Chaim,
I think the issue is not so much what happened but what can be done. We all know that the state of Israel came about in a manner that is not kosher, with characters who were not kosher and with motives that were not kosher. I don't think any among us disagrees with such a conclusion. The issue is that given the "lemon" that we have, what can be done to make it kosher? We can't start by arguing how bad the Zionists were, that's history and, for our purpose, irrelevant.

So my question to you, is this; what would you do to fix the problem? Many Hareidi say that we should just leave it alone until HaShem brings about a miracle. Is that where you are holding?

Avi

quote:

So my question to you, is this; what would you do to fix the problem? Many Hareidi say that we should just leave it alone until HaShem brings about a miracle. Is that where you are holding?

That was my question as well. You phrased it better than me.

quote:

The issue is that given the "lemon" that we have, what can be done to make it kosher? We can't start by arguing how bad the Zionists were, that's history and, for our purpose, irrelevant.

I agree. My point was not to criticize or to blame.
But in order to recognize what needs to be done we also need to realize where we went wrong. Simply criticzing the seculars won't get us anywhere.

"Those who tremble at the word of HaShem, however stood on the side and refrained from sharing in the work. They stood by their age-old claim, 'it is preferable to sit and do nothing'. In the meantime these 'initiators' began rebuilding our holy land while the Orthodox Jews and Tzadikim stood aloof. It is clea that he who prepares prior to the Sabbath will eat on the Sabbath, and since the Orthodox did not toil, they have absolutely no influence in the Land. Those who toil and build have the influence, and they are masters of the Land. It is therefore no wonder that they are in control, for He who guards the fig tree will eat its fuit (Mishley 27:18)"

This is a powerful quote--and by one so staunchly planted on the other side of the issue.

I think it also calls to action (NOW) all those who have stood aside in times past.

Baruch,

quote:

I personally would like to see all orthodox groups unite to make a spiritual change in Israel.

Don't we all. Unfortunately this is the problem that has plagued us through the centuries. Bibi is trying to unite the Likud with the National Religious parties to create a right wing Torah conscious block. Is that unity? Wait till budget time. Each group breaks away because it wants to negotiate a separate deal to fund its own interests. It becomes rather comical.....the current system has to go.

Avi

Avi,

The problem is that we don't have a common goal at this point.

We need first unity among the religous groups. Then I think more of the seculars will see the light.
Turning the State into an Halachic State involves more than just money for the Yeshiva.

Baruch,

He he he!

I couldn't stop laughing at that one because it is so true.

Actually in a halachic state the Yeshiva would be part of the medina educational system. But we see eye to eye on this one. Each Torah community is so parochial that it would take a miracle or a disaster to get the communites to work together. So perhaps the Iranian nukes might just unite us.

Avi

Quote "Rav Kahane was able to on the one hand call people like Ben Gurion a Rasha and on the other hand admire his courage and give him credit where it belongs."

Do you feel the same way about Henry Ford. So what that he supported Hitler? He helped us drive cars, which of course helps us to do many Mitzvos.

I'm not arguing on the Shaila whether it's possible to have a Jewish state run by Halacha (though I don't think that you would be willing to force people to learn to the brink like they did in the days of Chizkiyahu) but rather that the prevalent Hashkafa of Zionists, even religious Zionist, that there is no hope for it. I'm using as a barometer, that if you can't be sickened by the thought of Ben gurion like you are sickened by Henry ford and have uncompromising disdain for them. yet for Roshei yeshivos that are Moser Nefesh for torah we can look critical with, then there is something extremely wrong with them and there is no hope for anything good to come out from them.


limudtorah.jewishweb.org

http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums?a=frm&f=9291076782

Rav Chaim

I actually think it is quite sick that you are comparing Ben Gurion and Ford.
You should know that the Yeshiva leaders and Rabanim at the time did not view Ben Gurion the way you do. It was Ben Gurion who set the standard in Israel that Yeshiva Students not only didn't have to go to the army but also got money from the government for studying Torah.
I don't think any goy leader ever did that.

I am also presenting the opinion of a Rav. Rav Kahane was a great Rabi and a Tsadik.

But I don't see the point on arguing on this. We won't get anywhere on this.
Like Avi said that is History.

quote:

I'm not arguing on the Shaila whether it's possible to have a Jewish state run by Halacha

If you are not arguing this, then I would really like to know what are your suggestions to move forward.

quote:

So my question to you, is this; what would you do to fix the problem? Many Hareidi say that we should just leave it alone until HaShem brings about a miracle. Is that where you are holding?

quote:

Originally posted by Baruch:
[QUOTE]
The Satmar Chasidim simply believe that they should wait for the Messiah and everything will fall into place just like that.

Baruch,

I feel that you are over simplifying their views. First of all, I think that everybody should take a look at the source you are quoting which we both don't know how accurate it is. However, I think it needs to be taken in context and contemplated on what he actually meant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Teitelbaum

quote:

It is because the Religious leaders allowed the secular leaders to take control. The Rabbis in Europe were against the idea of a State. In Israel the Ultra Orthodox secluded themselves in their neighborhoods and only cared about their yeshivot.

Rav Teichtel ...

Forgive me for attacking a person who can't defend himself, but let's take a step back and examine this Rabbi and his views.
1. How many of you have heard of Reb Yisoel Salanter, the Chofetz Chaim, Reb Chaim Ozer, the Gerrer Rebbe, the Previous Lebovitcher Rebbe, the Chazon Ish, the Ponivitcher Rav, the Steipler Gaon, the Brisker Rav, and Rav Kook? How many of you have heard of Rav Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal ztl? A Talmid Chochum? Yes! A Gadol BiYisroel? I am not on a madrega to say, but I certainly can say that he didn't impact Klal Yisroel to the same degree as the Rabbonim listed above. In fact, until about a year ago, I never heard of him.

2. I can understand not receiving haskamos from the Rabbonim he attacked, but why not from Rav Kook and why not now from anybody with the reprinting of this Sefer? BTW - I'm told from a Zionist friend who wanted to learn this sefer with me that he (Rav Teichtal) wasn't zoche to publish it, but rather his son. Even though the father couldn't get haskomas, being in the concentration camps, his son should have been able to get at least ONE!
Here's his Haskoma page (which basically says that he believed that the Rabbonim who gave haskomas on another Rabbi's Sefer would've given him haskamas).
http://www.tsel.org/torah/emhabanim-eng/41.html#link

3. Today an Israeli professor published a book on how the Blood Libels were real! That the Jews at the time actually did kill Christian babies for Jewish rituals! Isn't that terrible! Look how disgusting we Jews are!!!! After all, it must be true!!! He's a PROFESSOR (with a PhD) and his father is the Chief Rabbi of Italy!!! SO IT MUST BE TRUE!!! (Hear the sarcasm?) http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=121317

The point being is just because someone writes something it doesn't mean he's right, nor does it mean he should be instantly held in high esteem. There are levels of greatness.

I once read that a Talmid Chochom came to the Chofetz Chaim for a Haskama on his book on Ka'as (Anger). When the Chofetz Chaim refused to give him one, the man became irate. There upon the Chofetz Chaim turned to him and told him that before publishing his sefer "Chofetz Chaim" he spent years on removing any traces of Lashon Horah from his speech. Now here comes a man who writes a sefer on Ka'as (Anger) and in an instant becomes irate. How can he possible expect people to listen to what he's saying if he is not setting an example?

The whole purpose of Moshiach and Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is to bring Glory to Hashem. Does a person that shows a lack of Kavod to those closest to Hashem (the Gedolim) really set an example for Klal Ysroel? Is someone like that truly trying to bring Moshiach?

quote:

Next year is the Shmita Years. How many in Israel are really interested in observing Shmita according to the Torah?
The Charedim don't care as they don't work the land...

Baruch,

Does the word “Komemius” ring a bell? Just one example.

I think that it is important when we harbor bitter feeling about something the Gedolim are doing or saying to go to them and discuss it. I did that once and the Gadol I spoke to opened my eyes to a view that I wouldn't have been able to recognize on my own.


All the best,

Magedman

Rav Chaim, Magedman,

You still haven't proposed any idea that could be used as the beginning to move forward. A lot of mistakes were made in the past...in many quarters, many unsavory characters are part of our history. But that's not the issue at hand.

So far you have given us a good example as to why we Jews are so divided. now give us an example to show us how we could be united. Both of you are learned men, surely you have some idea. Let's hear it.

Avi

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
Rav Chaim, Magedman,

You still haven't proposed any idea that could be used as the beginning to move forward. A lot of mistakes were made in the past...in many quarters, many unsavory characters are part of our history. But that's not the issue at hand.

So far you have given us a good example as to why we Jews are so divided. now give us an example to show us how we could be united. Both of you are learned men, surely you have some idea. Let's hear it.

Avi

Avi,

First of all, the original topic was "Zionism contrary to Torah?". That I have already answered according to my understanding.

As far as how to create Shalom (which essentially is "How to bring Moshiach?")I am truly not one to give an opinion.

I will say this much:

In order to do so we must make three things priorities in our lives.

1. Limud HaTorah to the best of our abilities.
2. Attach ourselves to the Gedolim to the best of our abilities.
3. Strive to constantly improve ourselves as much as possible.


This is all I'm able to say.


-Magedman

Thank you Magedman,
That's certainly a very good place to start. Perhaps I should start a thread that says "Solutions to the Zionist problem".
Avi

quote:

Solutions to the Zionist problem

Oy, no, that would be a good title perhaps for an arab contributor!

Haha! Rob that is true--looks bad! How about "Zionist Dilemmas"?

Quote "I actually think it is quite sick that you are comparing Ben Gurion and Ford."

I thought you would (just like I think it's quite sick that you have more admiration of ben gurion than you have for some gedolim.) This I'm trying to prove that you have more allegiance to Zionism than to Yidishkeit. There will never be a real Halacha state if that preference cannot be turned around.

Quote "You should know that the Yeshiva leaders and Rabanim at the time did not view Ben Gurion the way you do"

I don't think that's accurate at all. I read in quite a few biographies of the Chazon Ish, that after his famous meeting with Ben gurion, he stated that he was a Rasha Gamur. But whatever.

Quote "It was Ben Gurion who set the standard in Israel that Yeshiva Students not only didn't have to go to the army but also got money from the government for studying Torah."

We both know that wasn't from the goodness of his heart. This was what he thought would help politically. He thought that they'll collapse by themselves and it backfired. It's like the roman on Pesachim 87b that wanted to take credit for not killing Jews though the reason they didn't because hey couldn't politically.

Quote "I am also presenting the opinion of a Rav. Rav Kahane was a great Rabi and a Tsadik."

A very controversial one to say the least. (And besides, I'm a Rav and a big Tzadik.) He was not known as a big rabbi per se, he was known as an activist. (i have not yet seen SHut Meir Kahane.) It's not like his P'sakim on Hilchas Shabbos or Niddah are famous and are learnt in every Yeshiva. he's only known from "Never Again." like Avi Wiess is not known as a Rabbi but just an activist.

Quote "If you are not arguing this, then I would really like to know what are your suggestions to move forward. "

I didn't say i agree with it. I was coming from a different direction that even those who are heading for a Halachic state is not heading in that direction either.

Quote "now give us an example to show us how we could be united"

I'm sorry, that may not be practical. Let say Baruch. he calls for unity. yet his idea of unity is that everyone should agree to him. As soon as the Gedolim wake up and see the light, then we'll have unity. in most cases, we should not sacrifice truth for unity.

limudtorah.jewishweb.org

http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums?a=frm&f=9291076782

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
Haha! Rob that is true--looks bad! How about "Zionist Dilemmas"?

Perhaps "How to Kashur a Zionist" would be better.

Magedman