Quote "I actually think it is quite sick that you are comparing Ben Gurion and Ford."

I thought you would (just like I think it's quite sick that you have more admiration of ben gurion than you have for some gedolim.) This I'm trying to prove that you have more allegiance to Zionism than to Yidishkeit. There will never be a real Halacha state if that preference cannot be turned around."
END QUOTE

Ouch! But Rav Chaim has a point. One cannot cling to the one and be dismissive of the other.

Haha! Well done!

quote:

I thought you would (just like I think it's quite sick that you have more admiration of ben gurion than you have for some gedolim.) This I'm trying to prove that you have more allegiance to Zionism than to Yidishkeit. There will never be a real Halacha state if that preference cannot be turned around."
END QUOTE

Ouch! But Rav Chaim has a point. One cannot cling to the one and be dismissive of the other.

I DON'T HAVE ANY ALLEGIANCE TO ZIONISM.
I only have alliegiance to the Torah.

The word Zionism has been defiled as it was a secular movement.

But if we had true Religous Zionism (which we don't) then it wouldn't be a matter of Zionism vs Yidishkeit. It would be part of Yidishkeit.

My only interest in having a Jewish State in the land of Israel is from my strong belief in the Torah and my desire for the Jewish people to observe more mitzvoth.

My only admiration for Ben Gurion is that his actions give us the ability to move forward.
I truly wish it wouldn't have been him , but rather a God fearing Jew who would have done that. We could have had an Halachic State today.

The only issue here is our haskafa. How things are going or supposed to happen.

The observency of mitzvoth and studying Torah is just as important to me as anyone else.


Rav Chaim
You are able to criticize but I havn't heard any suggestions yet. I don't mind your criticizm of me and your accusations that I don't have true intentions. But at least lets hear what you would suggest. Suppose we put you in charge and I and those who think like me are not part of the picture.
Can you come up with a plan? Where should we start?

If you simply don't think we shouldn't take any actions because all we are to do is study Torah and concentrate of observing mitzvoth (which I also think we should do) than we are simply talking past each other.
It wouldn't really matter what my intentions are because you will never accept them as true.

quote:

A very controversial one to say the least. (And besides, I'm a Rav and a big Tzadik.) He was not known as a big rabbi per se, he was known as an activist. (i have not yet seen SHut Meir Kahane.) It's not like his P'sakim on Hilchas Shabbos or Niddah are famous and are learnt in every Yeshiva

Yes he was a controversial Rabbi. Anyone who says something slightly different than the rest is controversial. Many of the Gdolim were controversial. So I don't see why that is a problem. We don't have a shortage on Rabbis who Pasken on Niddah or Shabbos. But we do have a shortage on Rabbis like him who also deal with issues regarding the Jewish Nation.

But again according to your haskafa that isn't important so I like I said we are talking past each other.

Magedman

I am not sure what your point is regarding Rav Teichtel.
Today he would would not have had any problems getting any Haskamos. His work is admire and read by all outside the charedi circle (and maybee even by some within the Charedi circle)

I suggest you read it.

He was riticizing himself and his circle and not others.

"I must confess the truth and declare my sin. I, too, despised the rebuilding of the Land, because I heard unqualified statements made by many Orthodox Jews, which became firmly implanted in my heart. I did not concern myself with this matter at all, because I was preoccupied with learning, teaching, and writing volumes on the Talmud and on its commentaries, as well as responses to questions regarding the word of HaShem. I only delved into this halachah after we sufered afflictions in this bitter exile. HaShem enlightened me, and I saw that I and all those who opposed this movment were mistaken. I admit and say, "That which I previously told you was mistaken," just like Rava and other great Talmudic Sages did (See Mesoret HaShas on Shabbat 63b) When rabbis admit their mistakes, they are priaseworthy. "

Did the Ramban have more allegiance to Zionism or to Yidishkeit?

Ramban Notes to Rambam's Sefer Hamitzvoth:

"We were commanded to inherit the land which God gave our fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, and we should not leave it to any other one of the nations or leave it abandoned…, "This is what our Sages call 'Melchimit Mitzvah' (a mandatory war). In the Talmud (Sotah 44) Rava said: 'Joshua's war of conquest was an obligatory duty according to all options.' One should not make the mistake of saying that this mitzvah only applies to the Seven Nations we were commanded to destroy…this is not so. We were commanded to destroy those nations when they fought against us, and had they wished to make peace we could have done so under specific conditions. Yet we cannot leave the land in their control or in the control of any other nations in any generation."
this is a command that appliesto all generations and every individual is obliged to try to carry out this command, even nowadays in exile.
Dwelling in the Land of Israel is equal to all of the mitzvot"

quote:

Dwelling in the Land of Israel is equal to all of the mitzvot

It is a wonderful statement, but it subjects itself to easy misinterpretation of being an indulgence for not living by the mitzvoth, as long as the person is dwelling in the land of Israel. I think what Ramban meant was that it is a mitzvah as important as all of the mitzvot taken together.

quote:

It is a wonderful statement, but it subjects itself to easy misinterpretation of being an indulgence for not living by the mitzvoth, as long as the person is dwelling in the land of Israel. I think what Ramban meant was that it is a mitzvah as important as all of the mitzvot taken together.

I agree. I think he meant that it is a mitzva as important to all of the mitzvot.